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niklasl
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@niklasl niklasl commented Jul 6, 2025

Discussions has indicated that the introduction of triple terms and reification needs some clarification.

Mainly, this proposal:

  • Explains triple terms as references to propositions, and clarifying that these as references are not asserted.

  • Replaces the problematic formulation:

    Assertions on the triple term are made using the reifier.

    and moves the theory of that note to the end of the section (and with it the mention of "contradictory").

  • Keeps the details about using reifiers in one paragraph of the introduction. That also adds the notion of "triple annotation" alongside "reifying triple", and relates to both in the comment about concrete syntaxes, and from the diagrams.

  • Puts the comment about concrete syntaxes in a distinct paragraph preceding the diagrams.

Finally, it:

  • Turns the final comment about nested triple terms into a note, and characterizing it as an advanced practice. (It might even be removed from this section, as there is a corresponding, neutral note in section 3.1 Triples.)

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@niklasl niklasl requested review from gkellogg, afs and pchampin July 6, 2025 11:09
@franconi
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franconi commented Jul 6, 2025

  • "A triple term is an RDF triple used as an RDF term in the object position of another triple."
    -->
    "A triple term is an RDF triple used as an RDF term in another triple."

  • "There can be multiple, distinct reifiers underlying the same abstract proposition, such as statements with different sources, or circumstances with different characteristics."
    -->
    "There can be multiple, distinct reifiers underlying the same abstract proposition, such as statements with different sources, or circumstances with different characteristics.
    Also, the same reifier can reify multiple, distinct triple terms, which may express different propositional aspects of the same reifier."

  • "While a triple term may also have another triple term as an object, that is considered an advanced practice beyond the regular use of reifiers."
    -->
    DELETE (I don't how it helps or it is appropriate in RDF Concepts)

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I like the direction of the PR.

Co-authored-by: Andy Seaborne <andy@apache.org>
Co-authored-by: Andy Seaborne <andy@apache.org>
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niklasl commented Jul 6, 2025

I'd like to combine the first two suggestions by @afs and the first by @franconi, and furthermore join the resulting first and second paragraphs into one; resulting in:

    <p>A <a>triple term</a> is an [=RDF triple=] used as an [=RDF term=]
      in another triple. This usage is a reference to a <a>proposition</a>. For this
      triple to also be asserted, it must appear in a graph as an <a>asserted
      triple</a>. This allows for statements to be made about statements
      independent of their assertion within an <a>RDF graph</a>.
    </p>

Co-authored-by: Andy Seaborne <andy@apache.org>
which is a triple denoting a proposition.
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TallTed commented Jul 7, 2025

I like @niklasl #214 (comment), with one tweak to change usage to use (which I feel is appropriate in most if not all cases).

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I consider my first comment (about "IRI and bnode denoting a reifier") as blocking, but the rest should not block merging.

niklasl and others added 3 commits July 10, 2025 10:42
Co-authored-by: Pierre-Antoine Champin <github-100614@champin.net>
Co-authored-by: Pierre-Antoine Champin <github-100614@champin.net>
@niklasl niklasl requested a review from pchampin July 10, 2025 08:56
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niklasl commented Jul 15, 2025

I've done the updates, and also think this is good to go. (Let's give it some more time for e.g. editorial adjustments; perhaps aim for merge in conjunction with Thursday's meeting.)

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Sorry to chime in late with a request for change. I think the ambiguity in my first comment really needs to be fixed. My 2nd comment is more a matter of opinion, but I would like to discuss it.

and not the reifying triple in which it appears.

Co-authored-by: Pierre-Antoine Champin <github-100614@champin.net>
Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <tthibodeau@openlinksw.com>
@niklasl niklasl requested a review from TallTed July 17, 2025 20:24
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There's always something...

Co-authored-by: Ted Thibodeau Jr <tthibodeau@openlinksw.com>
@niklasl niklasl requested a review from TallTed July 18, 2025 19:02
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I think I can live with this.

@niklasl niklasl merged commit 97140a2 into w3c:main Jul 18, 2025
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@niklasl niklasl deleted the triple-term-intro branch July 18, 2025 20:35
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7 participants